They say laughter is the best medicine — a truth that Apple TV+’s “Shrinking” embraces wholeheartedly.
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This compelling series follows Jimmy Laird, a grieving therapist played with heartfelt humor by Jason Segel, who shakes up the traditional therapeutic approach by bluntly telling his patients the hard truths they need to hear. His new unconventional style ruffles feathers, especially with his boss, the wise and reserved Dr. Paul Rhodes, portrayed by the iconic Harrison Ford. Yet beneath their playful banter and sharp jabs lies a mutual respect that deepens as they learn from each other.
Earlier this summer at the ATX TV Festival in Austin, I had the chance to chat with Ashley Nicole Black, an Emmy-winning writer and comedian whose credits include “Ted Lasso” and Vince Vaughn’s “Bad Monkey.” Black joined “Shrinking” in its acclaimed second season, bringing a fresh mix of insight and laughter that strikes emotional chords without guilt.
With seven Emmy nominations this year, including Outstanding Comedy Series with Black among the nominated writers, “Shrinking” is redefining how comedy can tackle grief and healing with both honesty and heart.
Season 3 recently wrapped production, boasting a stellar lineup of guest stars like Michael J. Fox and Jeff Daniels, who will take on the role of Jimmy’s father.
Ahead of the new season’s release in 2026, Ashley Nicole Black and I sat down to discuss representation, the power of laughter in difficult moments, and what it truly means to find humor in life’s complexities.
Ahmed Humble: First off, how excited were you to find out season two of Shrinking was ranked like 100% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes?
Ashley Nicole Black: So excited because that show has such a balance of like comedy and drama that can be a hard balance to find in the writers’ room, and we work really, really hard on it, so then whenever you hear that like people are seeing that and appreciating it, it’s like so exciting.
AH: This last season caused an overwhelming amount of emotions. We laughed, we cried, I mean, that line of, “Hey, speaking of cars...” Who approved that?
ANB: That’s the great thing about working in a comedy room! A lot of jobs can have a lot of hierarchy or whatever, but one thing about working in a comedy room is the biggest laugh wins; if you say something in the room that everybody laughs at, it doesn’t matter who you are—our assistants get jokes on the air all the time.
AH: Comedy is a tricky tool, but it can be powerful when done correctly. Can you talk about the pressures that come with crafting a story that is thoughtful but also humorous?
ANB: I wouldn’t describe it as pressure, but I would say I have a sort of unique background that I started as an actor and became a writer. So for me, it’s always about making sure the characters sound authentic. So not just in the dialogue of like, what would they say or how would they say this, like Jimmy [played by Jason Segel] saying, like, ‘Hey, speaking of cars..,’ you couldn’t give that line to Paul [played by Harrison Ford] based on their life experience, their history, their education level—all of those things goes into how a character speaks. But also really taking the time, and we have one of the smartest writer’s rooms in the world, having long conversations, really drilling down on what would this person actually do in this scenario? And I think when you are able to ground it in the real, then you can get away with some of the bigger, sillier, set P.C. comedy moments. Also, I think that is what makes people respond to the show so positively, because they’re like, ‘That’s what I would do,’ or ‘I’ve experienced that,’ I’ve had people—more than one person—reach out to me and tell me the speech that Jimmy gives his daughter at the end of the season—owing her an apology for how he acted in his grief. Multiple women came to me and said, ‘That was something that I needed to hear,’ so it felt real to them. So if you can have that moment in that episode, then you can also have some of the moments that are a little bit funny or sillier.
AH: As someone of color and someone who’s navigated on camera and behind the camera, what evolutions have you noticed in terms of inclusion and listening, and representation since you first entered the industry?
ANB: I feel like when I first entered, I was always the one bringing it up. So I’ve been very lucky in the shows that I’ve worked on, in that it wasn’t that I was meeting a ton of resistance—a lot of writers of color do—but I was lucky to be in spaces, but I was often the person who had to bring up like, ‘Hey, we don’t really do this. We don’t talk like this.’ And the shift that I’ve noticed is that now, more people are thinking about that. So and it’s really nice when you’re in the back of your mind going, ‘Oh man I’m gonna have to be the fat girl who says, can we not make this fat joke today?’ and someone else says it because it’s on everybody’s mind, regardless of what they look like so that has been like a really positive change.
AH: What work is still left to be done, or what obstacles do we need to overcome?
ANB: I think the biggest thing, and I think my colleagues who would agree with me, is that the leadership overall in Hollywood is still overwhelmingly white and male. And so even though I think those people are much more open and willing to listen and interested than maybe their predecessors were in the past, there still are far, far fewer women, people of color, as decision makers. And I just think that someone who is rooted in a community being at that decision-making level is just gonna make different decisions. And so we’re still fighting for that, I think.
AH: How can audiences help, if at all?
ANB: I think that’s kind of the most powerful thing. There are a lot of different forces that go into what gets made, what gets renewed, but there is no arguing with the power of what people like. So when people buy tickets, when they are vocal on social media or whatever to support what they like, that is to me, again, as a comedian, that’s the trump card. Like, I started out in the Second City, where we would put up sketches in front of an audience, and if it didn’t get laughs, it wasn’t going in the show the next night. It’s not a conversation; you can’t be like, ‘Well, I thought it was funny.’ Nobody else did, moving on, so that to me (especially the comedy space) is always going to be king, is how the audience communicates back to us how they’re connecting with the material.
AH: Can we talk a little bit more about navigating that? Because that’s an interesting thing. It’s like, ‘Yes, we want to hear your stories, but sometimes it’s about what the audience wants. Yes, you have your voice, but how is it supposed to resonate with the audience?’
ANB: Yeah, I think anything that feels real and authentic to us as human beings is going to resonate with the audience, and that’s also the opportunity of having diverse writers. You have people from a bunch of different experiences, so they probably represent a lot of different communities, and you can sort of try to predict how people are going to respond. In sketch comedy, for example, where you would write a sketch and then literally put it up, we would have a rehearsal at 6 p.m., and do the show at 8 p.m., so you get really immediate feedback about what the audience liked. And in that training, you come to get better at predicting it. And then, Late Night, we write a show and it airs that week, and then now, we write a show and it airs a year later, maybe two years later. So the lag time becomes longer and longer. But you have like really diverse writers’ room, really diverse cast. I find that this room is really good and we write really good dialogue for our actors but sometimes when you’re on set and you’re noticing like an actor stripping on their words it’s like, ‘Oh this isn’t natural to them, so how can we adjust this so that it should come out of your mouth?’ And then on our show, because we don’t have the audience there, the biggest thing is the crew, like making our crew laugh. And these are vets. They’ve shot hundreds and hundreds of hours of television. So if you can get a laugh out of them, you know that you’ve done something.
AH: How has working in different comedy mediums, e.g., sketch comedy, as a multi-hyphenate (actor, writer, stand-up) and all these different projects kept you from feeling burnt out?
ANB: I am very much likely to have my hands in a lot of different pots and like to exercise the different parts of myself. So writing can be very cerebral. You’re thinking really hard about it and it is still very emotional and you have to be open and share your emotions with your co-workers as you’re like crafting these stories and then acting is like, you kind of you want to get to a place where you’re not thinking that much about it, where it’s natural, where you surprise yourself with what flows out. So being able to go back and forth is really fun for me, and I think it informs the work in both directions because, sometimes even in the writer’s room, I’m like kind of saying the words to myself and wondering, ‘Does this feel natural to me? Do I think it would feel natural to this actor? So I think I came along at a really really lucky time where you could do both. Amber Ruffin and Robin Thede were the first women to be both in the And so because I came third, it wasn’t like a crazy thing. It was sort of like, yeah, of course you would do this. But that was not the case before. It was like really forbidden. And we also have some other writer-performers in our room. Obviously, Brett Goldstein. Brian Galvin, who plays Stuart on the show, is an incredible writer as well. And I just think, again, having that diversity of experiences just makes the writing so much richer. Also, as a producer, having experience doing other people’s jobs helps when you’re talking to them about doing their job. So I’m really grateful to have come at the right time to be able to do that.
AH: Is there anything you can tease us about season 3?
ANB: We are currently writing and shooting season three. It’s already been announced that some incredible guest stars. And even though you’re like, ‘Oh my god, I love that Michael J. Fox is in season three or Jeff Daniels,’ As much as we know and love those performers, you will see something different from them that’s unique to the show, and that’s really exciting.
The cool thing about this show is that it started out amazingly. I think the pilot of the show is so good, and it has only gotten funnier and also deeper at the same time. I think we continue that in season three, so I’m excited for people to see it, and also people who haven’t checked it out yet, if you’re like, ‘Oh, I am a huge Michael J Fox fan,’ or whatever, start at season one now! You’ve got time! Come check us out.
AH: It seems like in the entertainment and culture industry, and with shows like “The Bear,” “Ted Lasso” (and ”Shrinking,” obviously), we’re talking more about mental health and everything, what sort of hopes are we having then for all these?
ANB: I think specifically with “Ted Lasso” and “Shrinking,” we are depicting men doing therapy. And I think as much as therapy has become less of a taboo topic, it is in some ways still seen as like something that women do, so I’m really happy that we’re able to represent the macho-est man in the world: Harrison Ford, doing therapy.
And so, I do hope that option opens up for some people; the possibility that therapy is something anyone can do, and also at times we represent therapy in a very serious way, and also a times in a light way.
I think sometimes people think about therapy is, it’s for the worst-case scenario, but representing it in a light way, like sometimes people’s clients come in and they’re having a conflict at work, like we all do. And that is something a therapist can help with. It’s not just for the extreme cases. And I think both in “Ted Lasso” and “Shrinking,” when our characters come upon a difficulty, I think a really unique and beautiful thing that [Co-creator] Bill Lawrence shows is that people come in to help, and that it not everyone’s reality. And I actually did hear from a viewer who had a similar situation to Alice [Jimmy’s daughter, played by Lukita Maxwell] when she was a kid, and she’s like, nobody stepped in. And so it’s healing to see to sort of demonstrate the type of community that we could build, where when you see a neighbor kid in trouble, you don’t just roll your eyes at them and post a tweet, but you actually lean in and see what that kid needs.
And not only was that helpful to Alice, but you also depict how that enriched Liz and Derek’s lives [Christa Miller and Ted McGinley] and how the whole community is better because they reached in to help.
AH: Can we also talk about the importance of laughter during the most heart-wrenching times, especially when it feels almost inappropriate?
ANB: Yeah, I feel like when I was younger, I may have had a feeling of like, well, if things are bad, we should just feel bad all the time, and I think that by maturing more, I think that people do need a break. Laughter provides such a release. Laughter is also literally brings people together. Like I said earlier, I started at the Second City, so you’re in a room full of people and the only way you can make people laugh is if we’ve all agreed that something is true. We all have to know what the scene is; we have to all be on board. And so when we watch a performance, like when you watch someone dance or when you watch comedy, your brain reacts very similarly to as if you were doing it. Like when you watched someone dance, the neurons fire in your brain as if you were moving your limbs.
And so in order for you to laugh at, say, Jimmy, you have to connect with that character. You have to have the experience. Your brain is having the experience of how it would feel to be experiencing this, which is empathy.
So the only way to have laughter is to first create empathy. And so when you look at what is difficult in our world right now, what we need the most is empathy. So I don’t see laughter as a frivolous pursuit. I see it as a way that we can practice empathy in a safe environment. And maybe it’s optimistic to think that it grows from there.
I think also one of the joys of having so much diversity on our show is that then people are asked to empathize with characters who are very different from them, not only in terms of race or gender or sexuality, but also just in terms of making different choices. At the beginning of the show, Jimmy is making bad choices.
AH: ...doing coke and hanging out with prostitutes.
ANB: YES! While his daughter’s in the house! And we are asked to empathize with how a person could get there, and we’ve all experienced grief and so we do empathize with Jimmy, we don’t judge him for it. I mean part of that is a credit to Jason [Segel’s] amazing performance as well, but I’m sure there are a lot of people who, in their everyday life, maybe do judge people in situations like that. But when you watch the show and actually take the time to learn the backstory and empathize with the character, then you’re laughing along with them, and maybe it makes you think twice when you encounter something like that in real life.